Holy crap.

Alright, let me digest some of that stuff and followup on the links when I'm not looking after kids and I'll give some meaningful comment.


Lukeyson

Alright, some comments.

Firstly Ethereal/Wireshark. I'm feeling a bit red faced about that. I'm a Network Engineer and have been using Ethereal for a long time. I hadn't seen the Wireshark Fork.

With regards to Wireshark and sniffing CAN - firstly, I had a quick look through and I didn't see any reference to Wireshark being able to do analysis on CAN. If you're aware of CAN analysis ability, you might want to forward a reference or link perhaps. Also, aside from J2534, at the moment every tool that talks to the CAN bus via the OBDII port has a different method of talking to a PC via the serial or usb port. So Wireshark would either need to know how to convert OBDII codes to serial via whatever direct access ELM327 / Autoenginuity / whatever OBDO tool you have, os support J2534. If Wireshark were to have J2534 support however, then as time goes on more and more Scantool devices will become compliant. I wouldn't be suprised if someday someone developed J2534 API's for the Autenginuity and ELM327 tools we use today.

Re: your other discussions. While I've pretty much kept this conversation to the automotive application of CAN, I can see that you are obviously from the part of the world where CAN (or similar) is used for real-time control of other systems. ie Paper Mills.

Appying what you know to automotive CAN would be very interesting. One of the people I converse with uses a CAN232 devices, which is meant to be, obviously, a CAN to RS232 bridge. It's use in vehicle diagnostics is a by product, and not the objective.

Whereas the ELM327 that I use is targetted only at automotive diagnostics. Mainly because it does a whole lot of 'interpretation' by making messages on the RS232 side very simple rather than having to construct PCI, data length and CRC's for every message. The other reason is that it supports a few other protocols (PWM, KWP, ISO9141 to name a few) as well as CAN. The BA Falcon has it's Park Aid Module and anything to do with diagnostics of ABS / Traction Control / Stability Control on a non-CAN bus (although the ABS/TCS/DSC module does use CAN for real-time traffic)

The biggest problem with either the CAN232 or ELM327 is how fast it is - and the Mongoose that I've referred to earlier is fast enough to grab CAn stuff at full bitrate via a USB port. I have seen reference to CAN cards that are PCI based. Your PCMCIA unit would be similar. Pricing would be curious - remember we're in the DIY enthusiast market and anything over $100AUD would be prohibitive.

I am interested. This is 'out of the box' type of stuff - trying to apply knowledge from other CAN industries to automotive diagnostics. It sounds like you're talking in this instance about trying to use a software product to try and display real-time information out of a vehicle via reading the CAN bus. This is just about on the money with what we're trying to do.


So go ahead, dazzle us again!


Lukeyson

(PS: feel free to PM me if you want to exchange even more gory details.)

Last edited by Lukeyson on Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

I had a quick look this afternoon too after downloading latest Wireshark - no protocol support - so no need to be red-faced - hehe



This is what Autoenginuity replied back this afternoon:



So prolly 3 months or more away - but, it seems at least they are going to provide a protocol analyzer-type tool, so it would be great.

I will grab the pcmcia Devicenet card on Monday from the Office, at least I know the physiocal level (RS-485) and the Datalink (CANbus) is the same, I might be open to capture Data and convert it to CANbus again at Application layer - I will have to study this and see if it is possible.

There are quite many CAN2.0a (std 11-bit CAN) and 2.0b (CAN Extended protocol) serial, usb and pci/pcmcia-based interfaces from various Industrial suppliers available.

I will get into action during the next week, and call on some of my contacts to see if we can get some alternatives, at least quite a few of these will have good application software coming with, and yes, even though it would be expensive, it would be nice to get one (I would) and assist you guys in getting down to the nitty-gritty of CAN 2.0a

I will keep you posted, thanx for the feedback!

Here's something worthy of mentioning.

Imagine, if you will, a replacement Instrument Cluster. It has a few dials on the left and right for fuel, temp, voltage, oil etc. But in the middle is a colour LCD screen for customised electronic display of speed, rpm - or anything else that's fed live off the CAN Bus that we've been talking about.

You don't like Dials? How about you convert to a 1980's Calais Digital Readout? Or a whole list of bargraphs? Or Forward Night Vision or Reverse Camera - via switches, or even voice activated? Or Video Conferencing using 3G? Or how about replacing every little annoying 'ding' or 'beep' with a customized message. "SHUT THE FRIGGEN DOOR' or "SEE IF I CARE IF YOU STAY UNBUCKLED" or a Riff from you current fave song.

Imagine that the control module is a 400MHz RISC chip with AC97 audio on a system running Windows CE or Linux. It has 2 x CAN Ports so that it could participate on the CAN bus. Digital I/O ports for custom control of all of the lights on the car. And Analogue inputs to retain such inputs as fuel level, temp - whatever.

Software updates could come via plug-in USB, replacement flash cards, or data could be passed to a CarPC via an Ethernet interface. (CAN over IP anyone?).

Imagine, if you will, that it was done with something like this (You might like this one Mr Bean):

http://www.applieddata.net/products_VGX.asp

Is my Nerdocopter Propeller spinning too fast, or is this something that's got an undeniable coolness factor?

It's just a pity that something like this would probably get canned by ADR, but heck, the Instrument Cluster on the BA Falcon is a stand-alone modular unit. So it is entirely doable.


Lukeyson

This link is interesting, in that it shows that the manufacturer of the system listed above really only started using CAN recently and started releasing product in 2004 - too early for anyone to even consider on the BA.

And maybe too late for Orion....but it's easy to see what might be possible in the future.

http://www.embeddedstar.com/press/conte ... 13112.html


Lukeyson

Nice links, will check it out, thanx

I picked up the Devicenet module, but rather the serial port unit instead of the pcmcia one, as it should make comms a little easier if using Hyperterminal for analyzing datastreams.

I will post a piccie of it tomorrow eve, been struggling with a bad case of flue the past 2 days.

I have taken some leave next week, so will analyze the possibility of using this dongle, and with it, opening the door to better analyzers, as posted a few posts back.

Will keep you updated, should have some info by Wednesday.

Kind regards,
MrBean

Hello Everyone,
Ok, I have done some investigation on the Devicenet protocol, and for the moment I am not able to communicate from the Devicenet Dongle to my CANbus on the UTE.

Devicenet is based on CAN, but, they have changed to physical layer (made it more secure) for automation use by adding opto-couplers, so I need to find more information about the impedances for this network, as I don't want to kill my car's bus with the wrong bus-impedance.

In the meantime, I have requested some information from about the Mongoose tool out there, and this would be great news for Lukeyson - This quote from an email Lloyd send me:



The link above points to the high-speed diag-only tool, which does not support FEPS flashing - here is the link to the Mongoose-Plus, which does

Well, I will order the Plus model, which will allow reflashing of the ECU with Motorcraft software - if we can get our hands on that

For now, it provides a standard J2534/-1 device driver, which allows interfacing to quite many software apps out there.

This in my mind is a huge benefit over the propietary interfaces out there.

I will order one, and if my luck holds, should have it by early next week.

Will keep you posted.

Kind regards,
MrBean.

Update:

Just ordered the Mongoose Plus, and full version of the PCMSCAN software. Now I am US $620- for the worse Rofl - my Wife's gonna kill me, luckily I have 9 lives like my Kitty Cats....

I should receive the software license via email, and the Mongoose will ship on Thursday, so Wed-Thu next week it shoyuld be in my hands.

Will keep you guys posted.

If any of you know where I can get a "legal" copy of Motorcraft software, please notify me - would be great to test the capabilities of this tool.

Edit: Found a copy, thanx Now awaiting the arrival of the Mongoose Plus.

Something I forgot to mention - the Mongoose is powered by the USB bus from the PC - why is this a nice feature? Well, the ones powered by the DLC on your car, will eventually drain the battery. So, if you want to have a nice carputer environment, you will continually have to plug/unplug the DLC-powered units.

The Mongoose can be left connected to the DLC, and won't drain the car's battery.


TO make a permanent connection possible/easier, I have ordered this 90-degree Male-to-Female DLC Cable, which would allow me to close the lid on the fusebox.

Nice. Will take pics once it's all in the car - now Iwon't have to worry about datacables/dongles hanging around my feet

Thought of splicing in the cable directly. No plugs, and mr. Ford Serviceman won't have to unplug anything to do his job (or ask questions).

I could have done the splicing easily, but, I'd rather have the cable, much cleaner solution (to me at least)

And MrFord Serviceman won't see my UTE for Service - I have 370rwkw's, so Nizpro is doing the servicing - so my warranty is voided anyway, nothing Ford can say about it

Rofl.

Well, I have received the Mongoose Plus, it works great. PMSCAN software too, and I have a 90-deg OBD-II interface cable so I can close that annoying fusebox cover.

Nice, I like stealth.

Will post some pics tomorrow.

WTF? I haven't been getting updates that this thread has activity.

nasty.

Because I noticed that you bought the CAN/PWM Mongoose unit. I know that that version supports FEPS via the optional module (which is the two versions you discouss - one without FEPS and one with FEPS), but as far as I knew, PWM is not supported on the BA. The secondary bus is ISO9141 - and there's a Mongoose unit that does those two protocols in one, but doesn't have a FEPS option.

You just can't win sometimes.

So I'm just about to get one myself Mr Bean - but will likely opt out of the Flash ability and in to the CAN/ISO version. If I get keen i figure I can splice out pin 13 and put 18V on it myself if I need to flash. It's only to flash the PCM anyway, and I'll have a CAPA unit shortly (hopefully) to do that for me.

This thread might be of interest regarding the Mongoose and Motorcraft Flash Software / CAN-ISO-PWM-FEPS.

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/engine- ... flash.html

I'd seen the 90 degree cable with the unterminated end and thought about it. But decided to go with the Y-SPlitter. Given that now I want to capture some traces when I do an ICC upgrade to dual-zone climate control sp I can see the Parameter Reset commands and any other information, I may just do a splice behind-the-scenes. BUt that would require a discrete CarPC arrangement and that's a bit dubious for me right now.

I may have no choice but to be upfront...

One final note. If anyone here can get their hands on SAE J2186 or ISO 15031-7 (Same thing, just Euro or US) I'd be forever grateful.


Lukeyson

I only just picked up on your other thread at mp3car. I failed to mention before that I got word back from Motorcraft that non-US cars are not supported in their J2534 software, and no word on whether they would in the future.

But I'd be betting that it's just a matter of time, so you're probably well future-proofed - except the bit about accessing your ISO modules.......and I wouldn't mind seeing if there's a way to turn on HDC in Territory's somehow (even though my confidence level is quite low).



Lukeyson

I considered the one you're after, but finally decided I will get the Mongoose+, even though a fair bit more expensive, it futureproofs me a little as you say.

I have the carputer up and running, it's doing a great job so far, need to finalize the in-dash 8" 4:3 LCD instead of the 16:9 Xenarc 7"

The cable is working fine, no probs with it, especially over such short distances, and think the nodes (Mongoose etc) is terminated with 120R anyway as a default - so we can run quite long cables with this arrangement.

I am making progress on my Industrial DeviceNet node too, at least I could establish comms for now.

Need to ask our R&D team to give me our system codes for DeviceNet (which is still under developement) so I can use this device for visualization.

Will keep you posted!

Br,
Beanie.

I found an interesting connector today.

I have an SY Territory Dash Loom for 'chopping up' so that I can have connectors into dash Modules that I want to bench test. It was a lucky find on eBay for $35 (They list it $750 new from Ford) so it's OK to be sacrifical. I also have a BF Fairlane Loom with the NAVI option, and I hope to use that in my MCC/ACC upgrade if it works. I have much testing to do to verify that though.

One thing I found in the Territory Loom is connector C-336, which is not found on the Falcons. And it's a very odd connector.

First some intro. The CAN bus on the Falcon and Territory, which is essentially the same architecture, is not a 'contiguous' bus. Ie, there are separate 'segments' that are 'isolated'. On all Falcons/Territories there are essentially 4 'segments'. These segments and connected CAN modules are:

(1) PCM + ABS/TCM/DSC + HIM
(2) HIM + BEM
(3) BEM + ICC
(4) ICC + IC + Diagnostics

Obviously, the HIM, BEM and ICC act as 'repeaters' between each segment. The PCM and IC also act as 'Terminators' for each end of the Bus. But what happens if one module is faulty and the traffic is not 'repeated' right?

Well, Connector C-336 has pins on the CAN bus of each of these 4 segments, so that you can 'sniff' the traffic on each of these individual segments. How cools is that?

I was startled to see it. The connector comes with a 'blanking' plug, and is on the part of the loom where the IC, Drivers Airbag, Clockspring and Steering Column plugs diverge from the main loom core.

The biggest thing for me, though, is why would the Territory have such a connector but the BA/BF does not?


Lukeyson