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| arm79 |
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snap0964 wrote: IIRC the EF/EL mark indicates 10 deg BTDC ?? No, it is a true TDC on the EF/EL. snap0964 wrote: We didn't take out the crank bolts to see where the keyways are, but I'm guessing the timing marks are in different locations on the respective harmonic balancers I forgot about that actually. Only ever done one full serpentine conversion, and from memory if you line up the balancers using the keyway as the reference, the marks on the balancers are a bit different. If you use the ED timing cover with the EF/EL balancer as is, things will be a bit out of wack. Last edited by arm79 on Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total. |
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| snap0964 |
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arm79 wrote: snap0964 wrote: IIRC the EF/EL mark indicates 10 deg BTDC ?? No, it is a true TDC on the EF/EL.arm79 wrote: If you use the ED timing cover with the EF/EL balancer as is, things will be a bit out of wack. I'd imagine most people would go that way as the tensioner mounts are there on the EB/ED cover. BenJ measured and remarked the balancer to suit the EB/ED timing cover marks.
_________________ 96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl |
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| TROYMAN |
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yes the ef/el balancer has the timing mark in a different position compared to ea to ed/xg..
but both engines at tdc is still tdc, just eb/xg has the 10 deg btdc mark aswell as the tdc mark... and the timing mark on ef/el is engine at tdc |
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| Saltez! |
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In cold start mode on the ECU i gather that all sensors are being used except for the oxygen sensor right??? when the car goes into open loop then it uses the oxygen sensor to help with the fuel maps.
So all the sensors such as Coolant Temp Sensor, Air Intake Temp sensor are being used when the car is in cold start mode. Also obviously the TPS and MAP sensor are being used also. Can the cold fuel maps change at all?? or are they pretty much concreted in to the ECU. I have read on here that a faulty CTS cause cause hesitation when cold, I have checked the voltages from cold to operating temp and it seems to check out fine.... The table to check it against is pretty general as far as temperatures and voltages go. Maybe it might be out of spec ever so slightly. I have a second hand CTS out of an AU in my shed. Are they the same?? They look the same.. Would you bother changing the CTS even if it was giving correct readings?? I have already changed the Air Intake Sensor and that didn't fix anything...
_________________ XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint. |
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| Saltez! |
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okay I'm not quite finished yet, I am almost about to admit defeat....
I just replaced my CTS with another one I had lying around and that didnt fix the problem so I tested my 02 sensor.. I bought it new off ebay about 3 months ago. When I first put it in it would oscillate between 0.1 and 0.85 as it is meant to. Now it just gradually climbs up to 0.85v and then stays there. It doesn't matter how long I wait. It does not oscillate. This would probably be around the 3rd o2 sensor i have had in the car in a year. Why is my car chewing out 02 sensors........ In the workshop manual it says staying above 0.85v could be the fusible link??? I know where there is but I'm not quite sure what to check for as if this link blew wouldn't there be no power at all?????? It also says it cold be high fuel pressure (maybe I'm running a 280kpa fpr) leaking injectors (definitely isn't they are new) Faulty CTS (definitely isn't I just replaced it) Faulty Air temp sensor (definitely isn't have replaced it) faulty map sensor (have a brand new one on there, have also tried the old one, no difference) Faulty 02 sensor (Its only 3 months old) So basically what am I looking for when checking the fusible link. Pull it out and hang a multimeter across it or something???
_________________ XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint. |
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| andrewt12 |
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The engine temp sensor has the biggest influence on the engine operating conditions, the intake air temp influences how much air mass is calculated in the SD calculations.
All the startup fuel tables are based on ECT alone. Also when to enter closed loop is based on ECT. ECT = CTS Getting .85v from the O2 doesn't indicate its bad, when you see oscillate it means the engine has warmed up and entered closed loop, its the ECU that makes it oscillate by increasing and decreasing the fuel injected. I will say your O2 sensor is OK. Its the ECU not going into closed loop that is the problem, it should happen after around 2 - 3 minutes after starting. .85v means a rich mixture. What the workshop manual says doesn't make sense, but the fusible link they refer to would be for the heater element. I know you have tested the ECT sensor but your results point to that. Could it be the wiring back to the ECU ? If you check it @ the ECU make sure you use the signal return as the gnd reference. Does it have any effect if you disconnect the ECT ? Edit: Just remembered its not setting a code though, so it sort of throws my theory out the window. You should get about .5 - .6 from the ECT when the engine is warm and around 2 - 3 volts at ambient temperature. |
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| Saltez! |
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andrewt12 wrote: .85v means a rich mixture. Yes the rich mixture would be confirmed by all the black crap on my roller door near my exhaust pipe lol andrewt12 wrote: I will say your O2 sensor is OK. Its the ECU not going into closed loop that is the problem, it should happen after around 2 - 3 minutes after starting. When I disconnect the CTS it doesnt change anything.... I replaced the CTS with another CTS I had in my shed this morning and nothing has changed... I agree, from what I have read on here, it does all point to the CTS but I am getting correct readings. So i don't know whats going on!! However I have not checked this sensor using signal ground. I always check all my sensors by piggy backing off them at the ECU. I got 0.83v when the car had warmed up. ( i didnt check it before as I was testing my 02 sensor) andrewt12 wrote: I will say your O2 sensor is OK. Its the ECU not going into closed loop that is the problem, it should happen after around 2 - 3 minutes after starting. I had the car idling for around 10 minutes or so and took it for a drive. The o2 sensor still stayed above 0.85v. It hovered 0.81v to 0.85v. I have no idea why the ecu is not going into closed loop though. Maybe because currently I am using the EL AUTO ecu with no resistors. However I did plug in my XG ecu and tried that, the o2 sensor stayed the same with this ecu aswell. Around 0.85v. Interesting thing was I went out for a quick spin around the block with the AUTO ecu in and it hesitated fairly badly. But came good. Before the car had warmed up I threw in the xr6 manual ECU and went around the block and the car hesitated hardcore........... The problem is worse going from the EL AUTO ECU to the EL XR6 Manual ECU. Does that give us any clues???
_________________ XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint. |
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| Krytox |
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Interesting read,
I've had simular issues as well. I converted a 91 XF Ute to an XG (full looms) and now running a EF XR engine with a XH w/Log manifold Manual ECU. The car was running fine, until the cig lighter internally shorted from a dodgy nokia charger. Since then it was hesitant and running like a pig for a while, and the thermos didn't get off high speed unless you turned the car off and then back on. I get similar error codes in regards to cluster and other eb series problems with the EL ecu. In the end i plugged up another ecu and cleared the codes and its much better. not even a knock sensor error when its not even plugged in. If i read more and come up with something that seems strange i'll put 2 cents in!
_________________ Carefree, we may not be number one, but we're up there. |
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| snap0964 |
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Might sound strange - try an EB or ED auto ECU, see how they do.
Since you have a good relationship with the local wrecker, you might be able to borrow one. Here's another - run your A/C with the EL ECU, does it not get cold enough compared to the XG ECU ?? If that's the case, feel the pipeline from the condenser to the evaporator, it might be too hot to touch.
_________________ 96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl |
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| Saltez! |
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The A/C works great with both the XG and EL ECU's. It's probably the best part of the car
 I will see if i can get a hold of an EB-ED ecu and see how that goes. But i think that will move me backwards a bit because I could just leave my XG ECU in there if i was going to run one of those. I want to have the EL BBM switch and thermo fan option. I think i'm gonna have to concede defeat on this one.. I'll get it chucked on a dyno. That will show everything up I dare say and hopefully show the root of this problem!!! It could be as simple as that I may have a cam in my reconditioned engine that is out of spec when it was machined or maybe it might be a regrind or something. Maybe the XG ecu has rich or lean enough fuel tables to hide it, maybe the EL one doesn't..... All i know is that I have pretty much done EVERYTHING!!! I sort of feel bad that when I do get my car dyno tuned it may just work around or hide the real issue but I guess as long as I get good power and good Air Fuel Mixtures.. who cares!!
_________________ XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint. |
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| snap0964 |
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Saltez! wrote: The A/C works great with both the XG and EL ECU's. It's probably the best part of the car Must be climate control - couldn't remember after many years - the XH A/C wasn't on par with the EL ECU with CC - once I changed the evaporator sensor - ED's (I think) onwards run a bulb on a wire, XG/XH run's the capilliary tube type, all was sorted.Saltez! wrote: I will see if i can get a hold of an EB-ED ecu and see how that goes. But i think that will move me backwards a bit because I could just leave my XG ECU in there if i was going to run one of those. I want to have the EL BBM switch and thermo fan option. That's why I said strange - it's a sideways step and there should be no change, but if the EB/ED ECU runs crap, then there must be a incompatibility, only prob is then to find itSaltez! wrote: It could be as simple as that I may have a cam in my reconditioned engine that is out of spec when it was machined or maybe it might be a regrind or something. Maybe the XG ecu has rich or lean enough fuel tables to hide it, maybe the EL one doesn't..... Hence my unpopular suggestion of setting up the baseline as per factory - cam, throttle, etc. I had a look at cam specs the other day - there are small differences between them. If it's factory setup, then it's very remote that your problem will stem from it.Saltez! wrote: I sort of feel bad that when I do get my car dyno tuned it may just work around or hide the real issue but I guess as long as I get good power and good Air Fuel Mixtures.. who cares!! Well if you're getting good power and A/F's are correct throughout - it's in tune ?? Isn't it ??
_________________ 96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl |
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| snap0964 |
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Interesting reading.
Guess I'll have to get out the V blocks and degree wheel. As I say my workshop manual specs show they are slightly different. Had a look at some cams: 94DT-6250-AB EF/EL XR6 cam 91DA-6250-AB EB/ED/XG/XH cam The bold letters were a different casting to the others which were recessed - they didn't look stamped to me. Other thing that doesn't add up is from 1994-98 why the passenger cars (EF/EL) would have a 94DA cam, and the commercials (XG/XH) would have a 91DA cam if they were the same. Even the 98 hybrid engine EL's have a different cam pt no than the corresponding 98 hybrid XH's.
_________________ 96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl |
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| Saltez! |
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Hey guys just posting to let you know how I went with this problem. I got a j3 chip and tune done with Mike Dale Automotive and the problem is gone and the car feels like brand new!!! It pulled 109rwkw and 309nm of torque and most importantly of all the hesitation is GONE!!!!
I was quite surprised with the results as i only have extractors, 2.5 inch exhaust, hiflow cat and the BBM. The internals of the engine are untouched. The next step for me is a respray followed by finding some EL GT 17" rims and then either Turbo charge (non intercooled) or supercharged. I havent quite decided yet. I'm just stoked that the car is actually behaving like it should for once. I'd like to thank Mike Dale for all his help. He did a fantastic job and was very easy to speak with. It was refreshing to find a mechanic/tuner that wasn't a cowboy and who actually knew his stuff!! I had a great customer experience taking my car there and I urge all you SA BOYS to head on down there if you need any tuning done etc. I would also like to thank all you guys on the fordmods website. You have been great in supporting me getting this issue sorted. You guys always had idea's for me when I had none and the fordmods website provided heaps of information to read through and educate myself with. So THANKYOU FORD MODS!!!!
_________________ XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint. |
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| dahayes |
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Hello everyone,
I am aware this thread is an oldie but it hold relevance to my current situation. I have recently installed an EL engine and ECU in my XG with resistors and am also experiencing this hesitation issue. Saltez, was your tuner able to recognise what the issue was before the chip went it and did he explain it to you in any detail? Also i believe the ECU im running is from a fairmont ghia, Snap mentioned climate control sensors werent compatable. Could this be the root of the problem? Any advise we be great cheers! Dan |
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| Saltez! |
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Hi dahayes,
In my efforts to correct the initial problem of hesitation, I ran all the fault codes and I think my ECU was out of a fairmont aswell. I got the codes to do with the power steering, thermo fans not being hooked up (because I only had a clutch fan at that point) and I think that was about it from memory so I doubt the climate control would be affecting the cold start hesitation. As much as I said that in the above post that my problem was completely gone. The hesitation was still slightly there when it came back from the tuners but was nowhere near as bad and once it had warmed up it was completely gone. It would only do it on the first corner from home. Being that the problem only happens once when the car is so cold I could hardly blame the tuner from not getting rid of it completely. The fuel maps from the EB-ED (XG) have a slightly richer idle I remember being a response from one of my posts I made on here. The EL one is slightly leaner. I put down the problem to this. I currently have no problems at all now with the hesitation. I connected up the el thermofans and got them running off the ECU. I put a j3 chip in there and got it tuned and I installed a wade 1676 cam which I have yet to get tuned. If it was me, I would get a j3 chip in there and get it tuned. If that didnt fix it then I would throw in the thermo fans so the car warms up quicker and this seemed to fix the problem for me. I dont think the bigger cam helped the situation much at all. Unless the cam made it richer at idle, masking the problem??? Otherwise unless your using the EL ECU to run the thermo fans (or plan to in the future) just run the XG ECU until u can afford the chip and tune. Mine even seemed to feel like it went a bit better with it in there, despite the tune being out with the BBM and no switching to the short runners. Depends how often you go over 4000 rpm lol. Anyways I hope this helps ya. But dont go down the path of checking all the sensors, the tps, fuel pump, fuel filter or even the injectors, distributer cap and leads. Its not them, its definitely the tune on the ECU!! You can always double check by throwing in ur xg ecu and going for a quick squirt around the block. Good luck with it buddy.
_________________ XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint. |
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