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| bennomate |
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Well my crow xr6 springs arrived yesterday I just need a free day to put them in. Hopefully over easter. I'll post back the verdict, fingers crossed it works all good.
_________________ F6 Typhoon Silhouette with Dark Argent rims, build P0001. Stock as a rock and staying that way. |
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| misk_one |
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i would try and chase down the issue one or two last times before doing the springs as i have a 977b with standard springs and idles and drives like standard.
even if your springs were flogged, it shouldn't be an issue when only idling. are you 100% certain the rocker gear was fitted correctly and squarely against the head with the shims mounted correctly? ie. single score facing up for both shims? no shims were left out at all? HLAs were bled prior to reinstalling them?
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| 87SIlude |
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{USERNAME} wrote: When you put the stock cam in did you remove the shims that you installed for the 977b ? ?? |
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| misk_one |
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^ lol i noticed that question went unanswered...
i think the issue will be in the HLA assembly in one way or another.
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| 87SIlude |
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Bet he read it and face palmed.
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| bennomate |
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Ok I'll say it again, yes when I installed the 977b I installed one more set of standard shims the right way up and yes I removed them when I put the stock can back in, I did t answer that question because I've said it twice already....
Apart from changing the shims, EVERYTHING was the same changing from the 977b back to stock. So if the noise is gone with the stock cam but there when the shims and the 977b are in that means it's either the tensioner or the springs. Or the cam. {USERNAME} wrote: even if your springs were flogged, it shouldn't be an issue when only idling. the issue is only from 2000rpm and up. Valetrain Operation at idle is almost silent.
_________________ F6 Typhoon Silhouette with Dark Argent rims, build P0001. Stock as a rock and staying that way. |
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| Greenmachine |
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It almost sounds like only one extra shim isn't enough? - you should really do a proper flat clearance check - the manual indicates using a special tool to apply pressure to each rocker (roller on base circle) until the HLA goes flat then use a guage under the roller.
There's a proper tool for the job but I'm sure something can be rigged up - I'll be doing it myself on mine sometime in the next week or so - my JMM cam has been using an extra factory "shim" + a 1mm washer in each rocker but in the EF (was ok in the ED) it's tended to click a bit on cold start and be a little noisier than std at idle (whispery noise - not nasty - and there's no problem at high rpm). I'm doing the head gasket at the moment and when pulling it apart noticed the rockers that were on lobe base circles felt "soft" (not loose enough to click but there was movement within the oil film) plus there's slight galling on almost all the valve ends - so I suspect I need more shimming. To that end I got 3.4mm shims from Precision Shims - ie. with a single std shim + one new shim in each I'll have + 0.5mm more than I had - but I want to do a flat clearance check with the new shims in place to make sure it's in tolerance.
_________________ Sold the Greenmachine - now driving 2015 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk. |
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| DRHEMI |
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I just fitted a reground cam to my EF
What I noticed with 3mm shims is that the hole in the centre of the 3mm shim is much smaller than the hole for the oil in the lifter. I looked at STD ford shims with the cross hatch on it and there was a circle where the lifter was hitting the STD ford shim - this circle was big enough to go over the cross hatch marks on the STD ford shim thus oil could enter the lifter with ease through the cross hatch Now if you put the extra 3mm shim in-between the lifter & the STD ford shim with the cross hatch the hole in the extra shim is too small to to even reach the cross hatch marks. So For the time being I have fitted the 3mm shim then the STD ford shim with the cross hatch then the extra shim as the hole in the extra 3mm shim matches up with the oil hole in the rocker arm BUT the STD ford shim with the cross hatch floats around as it's 3mm away from where it locks into the rocker arm. I am planning to get new 3mm shims with a bigger centre hole the same as the hole in the lifter  this way I can put the STD ford shim with the cross hatch in it's factory place - fit the 3mm shim with the bigger hole then the lifter & the oil should flow properly.What I am trying to get at is that if you have the factory shim in the STD place then an extra shim in-between the lifter and the STD ford shim with the cross hatches maybe the hole is too small restricting the oil flow to the lifter? I can add pics of what I am talking about but not right now from iPhone
_________________ PROEF 13.46 @ 105.78mph - 1994 Ford Fairmont EF NA 6cyl Man 3.9 diff Sedan Last edited by DRHEMI on Mon May 16, 2011 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total. |
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| FordFairmont |
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Posts: 6113 Joined: 8th May 2007 |
i got so dizzy reading that i nearly threw up on myself
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| DRHEMI |
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{USERNAME} wrote: i got so dizzy reading that i nearly threw up on myself Ha ha gold - basically the hole in the extra shims are too small & will restrict the oil flow if put in the wrong spot Pics will help lol Oil Hole in the Lifters ( the hole in the bottom of the lifters not the top holes)  Oil Hole in 3mm Shims - these are custom shims - unsure if the extra shims you use to get from Ford have a larger hole  Std Ford Shims with Cross Hatch - you can see the faint outline of the oil hole from the Lifter in some of the cross hatch's  Also in this pic you can see the faint outline of the oil hole from the Lifter in the cross hatch - as you can see the oil hole circle is large enough to go past the cross hatch's which end result let the oil into the lifter - the shim oil hole is smaller and goes no where near the cross hatch restricting oil flow  In this pic you can see the Oil Hole in the top of the Rocker Arms - prob same size as the oil hole in the 3mm shims 
_________________ PROEF 13.46 @ 105.78mph - 1994 Ford Fairmont EF NA 6cyl Man 3.9 diff Sedan |
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| Greenmachine |
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I use 3.4mm shims like those ones (from Precision Shims) - and I put them in FIRST and then put the factory shims in - so the factory shims are against the HLA's.
You don't need to worry about trying to get new modified shims - the aim of the game is to have the factory shims with the three oiling grooves against the HLA's - and the back face against a flat surface with a central bleed hole. Those 3mm shims do exactly that. Also - I hope you realised there's likely to be crap in the holes in most if not all those new shims and cleared them before fitting??
_________________ Sold the Greenmachine - now driving 2015 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk. |
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| DRHEMI |
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Thanks for the confirmation I did it right
previous cam was a billet so didnt have this issue  As said I did check that the 3mm Precision shims were clean and free of dirt before fitted. ONE thing I have just noticed is that on the factory shims on both sides have a hole mark on then bigger than the hole in the 3mm Shim (the side with the 3 cross hatch marks and the side with the one oil line in the middle) I then looked for a rocker arm pic and noticed that although the hole on top of the rocker arm is the same size as the hole in the 3mm precision shim BUT the hole on the inside on the rocker is bigger - see pic:-  So i am guessing that this is where my lifter noise is coming from (brand new lfiters by the way) The hole in the 3mm Precision Shim does not line up with the Centre Oil line in the Factory Shim.
_________________ PROEF 13.46 @ 105.78mph - 1994 Ford Fairmont EF NA 6cyl Man 3.9 diff Sedan |
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| Greenmachine |
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It shouldn't matter - I'm using the same type of shims you are - ie. with same sized holes - but 3.4mm instead of 3.0mm and I'm having no dramas.
The way I see it, the hole size difference itself shouldn't really come into it - the amount of bleedoff there is governed by the single groove in the back of the factory shim (which is really quite tiny) - PLUS, the fact that there's an extra contact area should technically offset the smaller sftermarket shim holes - and finally: the smaller hole if anything would reduce the bleedby which should actually increase pressure to the lifters... The crap I'm talking about was in the bores of those holes - I pulled machining grease and little circular shavings (almost like bits cut off small springs) out of all the holes in my shims... To be honest it really does almost sound like not quite enough shimming - else at least one slightly sick lifter (does it sound like all of them or just one or a few?). Before getting thincker shims I'd really recommend properly checking the flat clearances.
_________________ Sold the Greenmachine - now driving 2015 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk. |
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| DRHEMI |
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I am going to try it this way first
_________________ PROEF 13.46 @ 105.78mph - 1994 Ford Fairmont EF NA 6cyl Man 3.9 diff Sedan |
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| bennomate |
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Well the lifter/shim perspective just got more weight, fitted my crow xr6 springs with no improvement. I'm going to try another shim (3 in total) and see if the noise changes. I've only got 11 more though so trip to the wreckers for 1 shim haha. I'll do a flat clearance check first though.
_________________ F6 Typhoon Silhouette with Dark Argent rims, build P0001. Stock as a rock and staying that way. |
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