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| markr154 |
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Had a chat with Terry this morning and nutted out / confirmed a couple of things...
1. Base timing should be set at 10 deg BTDC (stock for EL Falc's) ...Terry did this, and is using the Eliminator Chip to fully tune the Ignition MAPS (as Fritzz questioned) 2. Even though Jim Mock suggested Ignition timing should be set at 14-16 deg BTDC, Terry and Barry reckon that is NOT the right way to do it ...since that introduces things like rev hang and idle hunting probs (which I had). They reckon it should be set at stock so that the car runs and revs as it should from factory. 3. Terry feels that the main concern is the jaggedness and apparent tuning difficulty in the top end of my dyno curve. It heads upwards quite nicely, but then seems to die scrappily in the a** from around 3600 rpm onwards ...he's popping off the rocker cover to check my timing chain guides (one is definitely broken) and tensioner, cos the chain is flapping and rattling quite loudly ...he reckons that this could quite possibly be affecting my cam timing, hence the erratic curve ...he definitely reckons there's more power to be gained up there.
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| FordFairmont |
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Posts: 6113 Joined: 8th May 2007 |
hmm, the BBM changes over at 3800rpm.... wonder if thats got something ot do with it?
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| markr154 |
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FordFairmont wrote: hmm, the BBM changes over at 3800rpm.... wonder if thats got something ot do with it?
Yeah ...that was noted too.
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| Delta |
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markr154 wrote: Had a chat with Terry this morning and nutted out / confirmed a couple of things...
2. Even though Jim Mock suggested Ignition timing should be set at 14-16 deg BTDC, Terry and Barry reckon that is NOT the right way to do it ...since that introduces things like rev hang and idle hunting probs (which I had). They reckon it should be set at stock so that the car runs and revs as it should from factory. Yes they are right its NOT the correct way to do it, BUT jim is saying that you should have at least 4-6deg added to most of the power making areas of the curve, fine leave idle at what it was factory if that stops rev hang, but the minimum timimng added in most other areas should be 4-6deg. If they haven't done that then they should not be tuning cars. Sure there might be some other issues like timing chain or runner change over point, but alot of power comes from adding timing, for example on my car with the huge cam adding another 2 deg on the dyno made another 25rwhp. Obviously your not going to see that kind of gain NA, but I'm sure you will see around 30-35 with 6deg, which would put you squarely back in 200rwhp territory. |
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| markr154 |
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Delta wrote: markr154 wrote: Had a chat with Terry this morning and nutted out / confirmed a couple of things... 2. Even though Jim Mock suggested Ignition timing should be set at 14-16 deg BTDC, Terry and Barry reckon that is NOT the right way to do it ...since that introduces things like rev hang and idle hunting probs (which I had). They reckon it should be set at stock so that the car runs and revs as it should from factory. Yes they are right its NOT the correct way to do it, BUT jim is saying that you should have at least 4-6deg added to most of the power making areas of the curve, fine leave idle at what it was factory if that stops rev hang, but the minimum timimng added in most other areas should be 4-6deg. If they haven't done that then they should not be tuning cars. Sure there might be some other issues like timing chain or runner change over point, but alot of power comes from adding timing, for example on my car with the huge cam adding another 2 deg on the dyno made another 25rwhp. Obviously your not going to see that kind of gain NA, but I'm sure you will see around 30-35 with 6deg, which would put you squarely back in 200rwhp territory. Cheers Delta. Pardon my ignorance, but how does he add timing to all the power areas while retaining factory idle? Will that be done through the chip?
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| markr154 |
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Just spoke to Barry.
Once they've determined / fixed the possible mechanical cause of my jagged curve ...they'll then use the Chip to add degrees in the power areas using a knock sensor when tuning. At least they now know I should be making 200+ rwhp ...which is also what Brendan Mock said.
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| USELESS |
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I have a headache but read every post. Mate it is apparent to me that when your car ran perfectly without any chip then your idle air fuel ratios are wrong. I know that they are running lean to buggery.I also believe that the car is running out of fuel and thats why its running crap.Couple that with a broken timing chain guide and you back on the road to power. The leaning mixtures would explain the overheating,backfiring and flat spotting. Some one needs a kick in the butt severely. If your timing gears were changed by proffessionals they should have installed it all brand new.
Also Joe for crescent doesn't brag alot but he knows what he is on about. I ran a 14.527 and got dynoed a few weeks later with 141 rwkws and a flat line of 10.5 air fuel ratio across the range.No dips or clips..straight 10.5. I wanted to choke some punk after spending a small fortune on tuniing!! You are putting out between 140 to 150 rwkws champ..
_________________ 14.77 @92.71mph July 06 14.52@95.68mph July 07 14.241 96.7 MPH in a shoebox/taxi au ford wagon!!Bwahahah still cant believe it!!! |
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| fritzz |
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no, the base timing is 0*btdc for stock el.
also, tuning with a knock sensor is not the way to tune an ignition map.
_________________ # 1997 EL Falcon GLI - 600+rwkw |
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| IMPRTETA |
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hey mark still have that haltech e11 and turbo kit for sale...........
Simon |
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| markr154 |
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fritzz wrote: no, the base timing is 0*btdc for stock el.
also, tuning with a knock sensor is not the way to tune an ignition map. Are you sure? ...my Ellery's EF/EL Falcon/Fairlane manual definitely says 10 deg BTDC base timing for 6 cyl (V8 is 30 deg BTDC). So how should they be tuning the ignition map?
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| tickford_6 |
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Posts: 6449 Joined: 11th Nov 2004 |
fritzz wrote: no, the base timing is 0*btdc for stock el.
also, tuning with a knock sensor is not the way to tune an ignition map. no but i does let you know if the feul can't handle what the engine wants. no point tunning for peak power if you rattle the engine to death befor it gets there but i do agree with who ever said reading this whole thread would give you a headache. it's become a joke. 20 odd "experts" who have all never seen this car, adding "expert" opinions. i really like the one about how 12.8:1 AFRs are too lean. Magazines have alot to answer for! |
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| fritzz |
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markr154 wrote: fritzz wrote: no, the base timing is 0*btdc for stock el. also, tuning with a knock sensor is not the way to tune an ignition map. Are you sure? ...my Ellery's EF/EL Falcon/Fairlane manual definitely says 10 deg BTDC base timing for 6 cyl (V8 is 30 deg BTDC). So how should they be tuning the ignition map? have a look at a gregory's manual or even have a look that the small user manual that come with the car, in specs it will say 0* or have a look in a genuine ford manual they all say 0*. yeh i have seen that the Ellery's manual has 10* but that manual is known to be incorrect. ignition is tuned to MBT (minimum best timing). u use the knock detector in case it knocks before mbt, witch i would doubt on a n/a engine.
_________________ # 1997 EL Falcon GLI - 600+rwkw |
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| FordFairmont |
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Posts: 6113 Joined: 8th May 2007 |
tickford_6 wrote: it's become a joke. 20 odd "experts" who have all never seen this car, adding "expert" opinions. haha heres a C*** whos obviously up himself. Nice way to contribute by mocking others 'trying' to help Lets all listen to your "expert" advice? Quote: no point tunning for peak power if you rattle the engine to death befor it gets there
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| tjb45 |
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FordFairmont wrote: haha heres a C*** whos obviously up himself. Nice way to contribute by mocking others 'trying' to help
I'm not taking sides here and don’t want to get in to a slinging match, but there would be luck to be 3 helpful post in this whole thread. If you take your head out of your a** for just a minute and maybe try to educate yourself a little you might see what tickford_6 is saying. What do you guys think the "Eliminator Chip" does?? Its not so you can play copied games on your xbox.. The Chip allows a tuner to adjust the timing/fuelling over the entire tuning maps. This means, that the timing doesn’t need to be adjusted via the dizzy, Its done with a laptop and is adjusted in the correct areas of the tuning maps. Moving the Dizzy so its at 16 deg. Simply adds 6 deg. of extra timing over the entire map, there is absolutely no point doing this if you are using the chip. This would be “retarded”.. Anyway good luck with the car, I’m sure Terry and BTP know what they are doing. |
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| BI6TIM |
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So did they sort it out yet?
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