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I6 Individual throttle bodies project 

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:59 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
{USERNAME} wrote:
you need very close to the same length valve, in order to maintain the correct roller contact pattern on the valve


a 2mm longer valve wont change contact pattern any more then putting 2mm extra shim under the HLA, which every one does with regrinds anyway. The plus side of a longer valve is the HLA is still %100 in the rocker, not half hanging out. Would put a stop to the broken rocker arms some people are getting with large regrinds.


yeah your right, i wasnt thinking properly... theres no roller on the valve side :roll:


With *large* cams you can ditch the HLA's and go solid too. theres a couple of different ways of doing this.
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:55 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
. So far i have found that Holden 308 valves will fit with the tips machined down to size. The 308 L34 intake valves have the 49.5mm head dia, share the same 11/32" (8.7mm) stem dia, but are tad longer at 132.2mm. The 308 exhaust valves are 40.7mm or 40.8mm iirc, with the same stem size but also need to be machined down to length. I know these aren't stainless valves but just throwing that out there :P

Ok, do we know if they are a 11/32 valve stem? or Are they 8.7mm?

There is a difference in the valve world

If they are a 11/32 (0.3415) stem which is 8.674mm there is a whole lot more choices

If however they are 8.7mm which is a 0.3420 inch stem, which have less choices.

I can't find my valve spring compressor since I moved, will pick one up tomorrow, so I can measure a valve.

Unless someone has one and some verniers?

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:17 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
{USERNAME} wrote:
. So far i have found that Holden 308 valves will fit with the tips machined down to size. The 308 L34 intake valves have the 49.5mm head dia, share the same 11/32" (8.7mm) stem dia, but are tad longer at 132.2mm. The 308 exhaust valves are 40.7mm or 40.8mm iirc, with the same stem size but also need to be machined down to length. I know these aren't stainless valves but just throwing that out there :P

Ok, do we know if they are a 11/32 valve stem? or Are they 8.7mm?

There is a difference in the valve world

If they are a 11/32 (0.3415) stem which is 8.674mm there is a whole lot more choices

If however they are 8.7mm which is a 0.3420 inch stem, which have less choices.

I can't find my valve spring compressor since I moved, will pick one up tomorrow, so I can measure a valve.

Unless someone has one and some verniers?



You could have the guides K-Lined to suit an 11/32 valve
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Clevo 2V valves appear to have the same stem size, but they are a little longer, and the collet grooves are in a slightly different spot too.
Sorry about the photos, but, they were taken with a 3 mpixal Kodak..... :)

 

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:41 pm 
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More work on the valve front,

Bought a new valve spring compressor, and pulled the valves out of the 94AB.

Scale drawing of standard set up, valve and valve seat.

Image

Using a 48mm Manley Pro Flow valve, would still leave 0.5mm of seat on the outside, however to benefit from this, the current seat would need to be honed out by 1mm to suit the OS valve.

Image

The difference between standard valves (area shown in red) and a Pro Flow valve
Just changing to a Pro Flow valve, would see flow rates improve, more so at the smaller lifts, but still would improve flow overall, Manley claim flow increases of 5% intake @ .400, and 14% @ .400 on the exhaust, over most standard valves.

Image

I'm thinking what about changing to a 47mm Pro Flow valve on the intake and the exhaust to a 40mm Pro Flow, possibly even opening up the inner diameter of the valve guide to 42mm, with similar laying back of the short turn as WagonDad did, should see a heap better flow?

One head place I talked to today didn't want to touch putting in an oversize valve seat, have a couple more to try this week.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:44 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
You could have the guides K-Lined to suit an 11/32 valve


Luckily they are a 11/32 stem, so there are a heap of Manley blanks of the shelf

The current guides would require a light knurl, as there are a couple int/exh that have a bit of play.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:19 pm 
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too big on the inserts and you will risk cracking between them...
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:39 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
More work on the valve front,

Bought a new valve spring compressor, and pulled the valves out of the 94AB.

Scale drawing of standard set up, valve and valve seat.

Image

Using a 48mm Manley Pro Flow valve, would still leave 0.5mm of seat on the outside, however to benefit from this, the current seat would need to be honed out by 1mm to suit the OS valve.

Image

The difference between standard valves (area shown in red) and a Pro Flow valve
Just changing to a Pro Flow valve, would see flow rates improve, more so at the smaller lifts, but still would improve flow overall, Manley claim flow increases of 5% intake @ .400, and 14% @ .400 on the exhaust, over most standard valves.

Image

I'm thinking what about changing to a 47mm Pro Flow valve on the intake and the exhaust to a 40mm Pro Flow, possibly even opening up the inner diameter of the valve guide to 42mm, with similar laying back of the short turn as WagonDad did, should see a heap better flow?

One head place I talked to today didn't want to touch putting in an oversize valve seat, have a couple more to try this week.


If you're going to buy new intake valves you may as well go bigger then than the stock 47mm, even if it's only to 48mm


Can you do those drawings for the exhaust valve. using a 39mm and a 41 as i have seen many many heads have the stock 39mm valves changed over to tickford 41mm valves. By the looks of the heads i have hear going From 47mm to 49mm would leave the same amount of valve seat as the common exhaust valve swap.
Being the exhaust valve and seat has a harder life, the intake side should cope fine.
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:10 am 
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{USERNAME} wrote:


If you're going to buy new intake valves you may as well go bigger then than the stock 47mm, even if it's only to 48mm


Can you do those drawings for the exhaust valve. using a 39mm and a 41 as i have seen many many heads have the stock 39mm valves changed over to tickford 41mm valves. By the looks of the heads i have hear going From 47mm to 49mm would leave the same amount of valve seat as the common exhaust valve swap.
Being the exhaust valve and seat has a harder life, the intake side should cope fine.[/quote]

Will measure up the exhust valve tonight.

Has anyone got a Tickford head with the valve out? if so could you measure the inner diameter of the exhaust valve seat please, i want to know how much they opened up the inner when they upped the exhust valve.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:43 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
{USERNAME} wrote:

If you're going to buy new intake valves you may as well go bigger then than the stock 47mm, even if it's only to 48mm


Can you do those drawings for the exhaust valve. using a 39mm and a 41 as i have seen many many heads have the stock 39mm valves changed over to tickford 41mm valves. By the looks of the heads i have hear going From 47mm to 49mm would leave the same amount of valve seat as the common exhaust valve swap.
Being the exhaust valve and seat has a harder life, the intake side should cope fine.


Will measure up the exhust valve tonight.

Has anyone got a Tickford head with the valve out? if so could you measure the inner diameter of the exhaust valve seat please, i want to know how much they opened up the inner when they upped the exhust valve.



I've got one, i'll check it out for you tomorrow
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:26 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
I've got one, i'll check it out for you tomorrow

Cheers that would be good, I want to try and order the valves this week.

I'm hopefully picking up the alloy plate that I'm going to mill the throttle body mounts for the manifold out of tomorrow, then the manifold can come together.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Only a bit of progress as the TIG at work is broken, hopefully getting fixed this week.

Should be cutting out the manifold TB plate tomorrow, this is the design, 10mm 6060 Alloy plate
Image

Had an exhaust place use their pipe expander to open up the tube I have for the runners to 48mm ID, these will taper to 42mm at the head.

Hey Tickford_6, any chance you got the Tickford head exhaust seat ID?

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:58 pm 
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are you using 6 individual throttles, or is the spacing suitable for 3x IDF's or DCOE's
Syncing 6 throttles is going to be a pain, you will need adjustable linkages (joiner/balancers) between each one.
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:05 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
are you using 6 individual throttles, or is the spacing suitable for 3x IDF's or DCOE's
Syncing 6 throttles is going to be a pain, you will need adjustable linkages (joiner/balancers) between each one.


In the first post he identifies he will be using individual EFI Hardware TB's on a common butterfly rod...

Cheers

James
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:09 pm 
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{USERNAME} wrote:
are you using 6 individual throttles, or is the spacing suitable for 3x IDF's or DCOE's
Syncing 6 throttles is going to be a pain, you will need adjustable linkages (joiner/balancers) between each one.

6 individual throttle bodies, to use DCOE's require the runners to have a bend, and as I'm using the original injector locations the DCOE's aren't really needed (the 803 series bodies don't have an injector port, but do still have an air bypass screw), EFI Hardware reckon once the manifold is made they can make a butterfly rod that goes through all 6 throttle bodies, which should in theory alleviate the balancing troubles, worst case they can join at least 2 or 3 bodies with the one rod, so maybe 1 or 2 adjusters at most.

 

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