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| stockstandard |
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Interesting read. From reading the posts of you guys that use them it seems like the autronic is difficult to install/setup. Just wondering what the difficulties with them are.
_________________ Stoke me a clipper, I'll be back for Christmas |
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| ebs_4l |
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basically we were pioneering the 6cyl tfi trigger support.. at the time (12 months ago) it had been coded to support 8cyl tfi, and it was assumed that it would also run the 6.. so when it came time to use it, it was realised there needed to be another trigger coded to suit. (the 6 and 8 have different narrow tooth widths)
a distributor was sent to richard aubert to setup the right software, and of course, all this process takes time.. after some issues with timing accuracy, it was found also to be necessary to move the triggering point of the tfi chopper disc to give a sync pulse at 60deg btdc, instead of the std position which i cant remember exactly where it was, but fritzz was looking the other day and tells me the sync pulse normally occurs at tdc. fritzz is yet to perform the change as far as i know, and his car has been running perfectly for him, although his timing wanders back and forwards +-2.5deg. where as my timing is rock solid this has only been an issue due to the TFI dizzy, if we were running factory 60-2 trigger wheels and a seperate sync (cam position) sensor like ef, au, ba, bf's then there wouldnt have been ANY issues if you want to run DVCT im not sure exactly what kind of cam position pickups you will need, i know the factory cam trigger wheel has about 4 teeth on it, and they have varied spacing from memory. be interesting to see what ray hall has to say about running the dvct
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| stockstandard |
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ebs_4l wrote: basically we were pioneering the 6cyl tfi trigger support.. at the time (12 months ago) it had been coded to support 8cyl tfi, and it was assumed that it would also run the 6.. so when it came time to use it, it was realised there needed to be another trigger coded to suit. (the 6 and 8 have different narrow tooth widths)
a distributor was sent to richard aubert to setup the right software, and of course, all this process takes time.. after some issues with timing accuracy, it was found also to be necessary to move the triggering point of the tfi chopper disc to give a sync pulse at 60deg btdc, instead of the std position which i cant remember exactly where it was, but fritzz was looking the other day and tells me the sync pulse normally occurs at tdc. fritzz is yet to perform the change as far as i know, and his car has been running perfectly for him, although his timing wanders back and forwards +-2.5deg. where as my timing is rock solid this has only been an issue due to the TFI dizzy, if we were running factory 60-2 trigger wheels and a seperate sync (cam position) sensor like ef, au, ba, bf's then there wouldnt have been ANY issues I see. Not sure I entirely understand why there is a problem though. I know there is a world of difference between the two, but the MS2's use the same trigger for 6's and 8's and have no problems.
_________________ Stoke me a clipper, I'll be back for Christmas |
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| Dansedgli |
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ebs_4l wrote: if you want to run DVCT im not sure exactly what kind of cam position pickups you will need, i know the factory cam trigger wheel has about 4 teeth on it, and they have varied spacing from memory. be interesting to see what ray hall has to say about running the dvct Just thought I would give an update. The cam wheels on the BA's and BF's need to be modified by removing teeth to work with the current autronic SM4. They are working on a new chip set to eliminate the need to mod the wheels. This new version should be released Late March according to Ray Hall. Im either going to hang out for this or go for a wolf V500 but from what I have heard from Brian at Racetec no one has run a V500 on a BA motor yet to see how it goes. I got a quote for $5500-$6000 to have a motec M600 fitted and tuned including option of running VCT. This is an extra cost on the motec. I know it is a good ECU but I cant justify the expense. The autronic is $2450 supply only and the V500 can be supplied fitted and tuned for $2500-$3000 at a few places. |
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| EBXR8380 |
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Have you thought of fitting an aftermarket crank wheel on the front pulley????
MSD, Motec etc sell them.... We had to get EMS 8860's software upgraded to run AU crank sensor...
_________________ As in ZOOM 126 edition |
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| ebs_4l |
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its not the crank pulley that is the issue, they are fine. they are something like a 32-2 wheel.
its the cam wheels that are the issue, the current autronic chipset obviously doesnt like the tooth number and spacing
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| EBXR8380 |
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YEP !! Thats what I'm saying mine is 12 tooth...
_________________ As in ZOOM 126 edition |
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| fritzz |
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yeh i have herd people having trouble with cam sensors on the au engines, why does the sm4 have trouble picking up the signal?
when its time for my au engine to go in im not sure weather im going to use my current ignition setup with dizzy and crane hi6 or use the au sensors with autronic R500 and coil pack. ether way i will be upgrading to the latest chip set for the sm4. it wouldn't surprise me if the latest chip doesn't get relised in march, because it was meant to be relised a year ago and it never happened.
_________________ # 1997 EL Falcon GLI - 600+rwkw |
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| EBXR8380 |
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fritzz wrote: yeh i have herd people having trouble with cam sensors on the au engines, why does the sm4 have trouble picking up the signal?
when its time for my au engine to go in im not sure weather im going to use my current ignition setup with dizzy and crane hi6 or use the au sensors with autronic R500 and coil pack. ether way i will be upgrading to the latest chip set for the sm4. it wouldn't surprise me if the latest chip doesn't get relised in march, because it was meant to be relised a year ago and it never happened. I think its how its set up in ecu ??...How it diviedes the signal to know where each cylinders tdc is... The EMS as said needed new upgrade as I think # 1 cylinder is identified by different [more or less? ] teeth on crank side of sensor.. Much the same as TFI on V8's [6's ??] the trigger / on # 1 is slightly different so cam senser is not required...By fitting an aftermarket ecu this generally is not calibrated into ecu, there fore issues... The EMS 8860 fortunatly has been used on 6 cyl production racing so they know all about AU set up and tuneing... I'm not saying EMS is better...Just that the pioneering has been done...
_________________ As in ZOOM 126 edition |
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| ebs_4l |
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it seems people have gotten a little bit confused...
EBXR8380 wrote: Have you thought of fitting an aftermarket crank wheel on the front pulley???? MSD, Motec etc sell them.... We had to get EMS 8860's software upgraded to run AU crank sensor... the discussion in question was not about au engines, dansedgli posted a email from ray hall regarding running the SM4 on a BA-BF engine... which i dont know if you have ever seen the TWIN cam position sensors on them??? then i said that the crank wheels are not an issue, after you suggested fitting an aftermarket one. then you reply EBXR8380 wrote: YEP !! Thats what I'm saying mine is 12 tooth... ???? fritzz wrote: yeh i have herd people having trouble with cam sensors on the au engines, why does the sm4 have trouble picking up the signal? when its time for my au engine to go in im not sure weather im going to use my current ignition setup with dizzy and crane hi6 or use the au sensors with autronic R500 and coil pack. ether way i will be upgrading to the latest chip set for the sm4. it wouldn't surprise me if the latest chip doesn't get relised in march, because it was meant to be relised a year ago and it never happened. The SM4 doesnt have problems with an AU engine... in fact, the AU engine is a lot better setup for an SM4 than our narrow tooth distributor setups, and they still run alright.. personally, if i were you fritzz, id use the 500r and run it wasted spark with 6 single ended coils, i will be running this setup on a mates EF fairly soon. Because anything that has the timing triggered by the crank wheel will always have more accurate timing EBXR8380 wrote: I think # 1 cylinder is identified by different [more or less? ] teeth on crank side of sensor.. Much the same as TFI on V8's [6's ??] the trigger / on # 1 is slightly different so cam senser is not required...
cam sensor is not required with tfi beacuse the dizzy is spining at 1/2 crank speed, even with a crank wheel with missing/narrow/watever teeth. you still need a cam sensor ok, the au, ba, bf im pretty sure all have the same crank wheel patterns, that is 32-2. which means 32 teeth with 2 missing teeth to identify #1 TDC, although, this alone is not enough to run your engine (maybe wasted spark and batch fire??) what you also need is a signal to identify when #1 is coming up on compression stroke. preferably triggered at 60deg BTDC.. hence a signal running at 1/2 crank where things get interesting with the BA is that they have 5 teeth on the cams (two pos sesnors), and they are arranged as a 4 point cross, with one tooth coming out between one side of the cross. that need to be able to be read and give a compression stroke signal, and also be able to be used to allow for VCT feedback control, so when you define the amount of deg adv/ret the cams can be adjusted to that setting, this NEEDS to be a feedback system rather than a fixed PWM duty cycle because if it wasnt, the cam timing would vary with oil pressure... all the while that you are moving the cams, the signal still has to be recognised for SYNC pulse
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| ef_frmnt |
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waaaayyy over my head.
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| ebs_4l |
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ebs_4l wrote: even with a crank wheel with missing/narrow/watever teeth. you still need a cam sensor
ok, ok, ok, even ill admit there was some miss infomation in my last post.... i know that the EFI technology EURO-12 engine management system [the most supreme system in the world] CAN in fact run an engine with nothing other than a crank postion sensor..... HOW???? you ask... well, this VERY clever engine management system will, when your cranking the engine, fire on every tooth, it will monitor engine rpm, it will try firing like this for a few turns, IF after a little while, there is no rpm increase, it will then skip the teeth by 180deg, and start firing on the alternate stroke... therefore, starting and running the engine with no cam signal.... although this system costs something like $16000, i have seen it in action in the supaloc racing lamborghini gallardo targa car
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| Dansedgli |
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Ive been doing more reading and the BA crank sensor is a 36 tooth wheel with 1 tooth missing. The cam sensors are 3 teeth at 60 degree intervals plus 1 tooth to indicate TDC or 10 degrees BTDC ( i cant remember which)
Ill need to remove the cam teeth so only 1 tooth remains for both the current autronic and the wolf V500. Has anyone taken a BA engine apart yet? Is it hard to remove the teeth so the signal is accurate enough? Does it need to be an exact job or can I do it at home with the dremel? If frittz is right I dont want to wait months for the new version autronic to come out. One thing I dont understand is how do I run both cam sensors and the crank sensor into the ECU? On the wolf in particular there are only 3 pinouts. 2 are for the crank and 1 is the sync output which can be used for a cam sensor. Does anyone know if the autronic has 2 dedicated cam sensor pinouts and a crank sensor pinout? I cant download their wiring diagrams at work. Do I really need to be able to sense each cam position at all times or is it only needed to run sequential injection/igniton? The DVCT runs by activating PWM modules. When the modules are deactivated i.e no oil is getting to the cams then both cams are fully advanced. The PWM can recieve signals to allow oil to flow in 1 of 2 directions. When this is done the cams can moved up to 60 degrees each. When idling and starting no signal is given to the phasers on standard BA's. It seems easy enough to leave the cam phasers disconnected so the engine can run without the VCT. Are vernier gears available for the BA? The older supra's and other jap twin cammers seem to work fine with a decent setup of cams and verneir gears to lock the cam timing in place. |
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| Dansedgli |
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Also what is the internal map sensor good for on the autronic?
Are you guys using the internal or an external one? |
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| EBXR8380 |
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I think you'll find they [ Motec, Autronic, etc] use there own pick up sensors etc.. But using Fords sensors and pick up would be far better if they could program ecu that way, plug and play ...
_________________ As in ZOOM 126 edition |
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