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| dcstraight |
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Ok guys - keep it civil.
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| ebs_4l |
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ok, im cvil now....
i just hate it when people bag what i did... i mean, what other options is there?? if you have too much boost, then you have to much boost
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| EFFalcon |
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ebs_4l: i fully respect what you've done with your car and am even more impressed by the fact that it was done by yourself, it takes a certain type of person to be able to appreciate the amount of work that goes into the fabrication of said parts.
I don't think people are bagging the way you've done, simply to some people it may seem excessive, it *IS* probably the most effective way of ensuring good flow through the waste gate but is by no means the only way to get the desired result. that said, 330rwkw is about 100rwkw more then i'm ever going to acheive 
_________________ FALCN6 - EF GLi Turbo, 20" Rims, Air Bag Suspension, Straight LPG, 225rwkw |
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| ebs_4l |
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EFFalcon wrote: simply to some people it may seem excessive
hahaha, lol, yep, tell me about it, to me, my whole setup got out of control, i went way too overboard... i spent double my budget
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| ebs_4l |
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that said, i got a txt msg from my tuner tonight, wanted me to send him my .cal file for the autronic, said he will make it pull 350kw for the dyno comp... up to me, either break it, or make it easily?????
can we have a vote here?? make or break??? brad
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| Eu-GenixX |
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you spend the amount of timme you have building your car.. and you really wanna break it?
sweet set up dude... enjoy it for a while... 
i hate that mine is taking so long to buy all the parts i need and then get the rest fabricated... |
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| ebs_4l |
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well, see, its more an educated guess that it wont break, we have full belief that it will be all ok, BUT, realistically, once you start pushing any engine that far, then your playing with fire... were talking well over 550hp at the flywheel...
i think it will be fine, plus, the bigger the number you make, the more pride you make with it.. its all about respect and pride how far will you be pushing yours??
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| fritzz |
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lol i dont see wat the big deal is with cutting a hole in ur tubine.
ur engine sould be fine i recon, its farly similer to TUFED6(460rwkw). i recon u should be able to make 400rwkw on around 18psi. i would go for that
_________________ # 1997 EL Falcon GLI - 600+rwkw |
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| ebs_4l |
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fritzz wrote: ur engine sould be fine i recon, its farly similer to TUFED6(460rwkw). i recon u should be able to make 400rwkw on around 18psi. i would go for that
lol, yep, you would, but not this little black sheep..!!!! ill call it quits at 350-360kw, lol, MAYBE!! damn it, its all too friggin' tempting, it does ya head in just thinking about it... my only concern is my head gaskets, surely they wont hold up to that much cylinder pressure.... one day i will assemble a DECENT bottom end for it and pump 23-25psi into it, and make some hardcore HP. i know it seems silly to possibly break something you spent sooo much time and money on, but at the end of the day, the thing that pushes you to do it IS the fact that you spent all that time/money, and want to see it perform at its full potential, get as much out of it as you can
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| snortingboost |
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ebs_4l wrote in another thread:
i seriously, for the life of me, cannot work out how snort can control boost pressure with such a non optimal wastegate outlet...!! its not even at right angles to the gas flow, its about 120deg to the flow... if they had a decent flowing merge collector and if that was fitted to a decent flowing combination, with a decent turbo, they would have absolutely no hope in hell of that wastegate outlet working... trust me, i did multiple wastegate setups with mine, ONLY way to control boost on a DECENT FLOWING (good cam, head, inlet) is to have the wastegate outlet off the turbine housing i mean, look at the angle they have the dump pipe coming out the turbine, what the?? no way is that good for flow my 2c Hmm, just your 2c worth. Budy, obviously you chose a cam which has far too much overlap resulting in much of the boost being blown straight through the engine and out the exhaust resulting in a loss of power potential and over boosting. As i said in this (too much freakin boost) thread, you've made the incorrect choice when it came to selecting the cam for your 'superman flow' (better than anyone else has ever done) engine combination. If you had the correct cam you'd be making around 360rwkw @14psi instead of the figure you've extracted. I have a dyno graph which is the initial tune done on the same engine type as yours, using a snortperformance stage 3 system, KKK 600R T3 turbo with a .84 rear housing and '50mm gate'. The engine and tune was done by JMM. As you can see it's only running 9psi on this graph but still made 294rwkw out of the box shortly before the drivetrain became an issue. The boost has since been wound up to 14psi where it's now churning out 360 at the treads. And, you know what, it was all done without destroying the turbo unlike you have on your system. But hey, if your customers don't mind you taking to their new $2,000 turbo with a gas axe, 'just so you can control boost pressure', so be it. Think about this though, how does a BA control boost and make 400rwkw with the original 35/40 roller bearing turbo, using its standard tiny internal gate with all of Nizpro's best bolt on goodies? Are you saying that your single cam I6 out flows the BA 4 vavle VCT engine with $10K worth of Nizpro bolted to it? Budy i don't think so. I'm expecting your answer to be something to do with your manifold design being superior to everyone elses, even though it's a direct copy of a snortperformance/JMM manifold just with extra butchering. When i first saw your manifold/turbo setup i thought it looked pretty good but that was before you rooted it. Look forward to reading your next colourful coments and severe ways of fitting wastgates onto turbine housings, in the future budy, don't go slagging off other people's work as it can often backfire on you.
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| snortingboost |
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ebs4l wrote:
wouldnt whack a ole in a turbo for love nor money??? well answer this, what would you do if you were seeing 16psi at 5000rpm with absolutely no wastegate fitted to the manifold and two 1.5in outlets on the collector[/quote] I'd change my cam! Hole is spelt HOLE. |
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| ebs_4l |
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snortingboost wrote: obviously you chose a cam which has far too much overlap resulting in much of the boost being blown straight through the engine and out the exhaust resulting in a loss of power potential and over boosting. . yes, my cam is large, and its design it to cause max spoolup which is the target area of most street turbo systems. Im willing to do whatever was necessary to use this cam as my car sounds insane with it.snortingboost wrote: If you had the correct cam you'd be making around 360rwkw @14psi instead of the figure you've extracted. my car has an extremely safe tune in it, as i prefer to have it reliable than have the other 20kw associated with increased ign timing and a leaner mixture... that said, i did have wheel spin on the dyno when it made the 328kw, so i am eager to see what it pushes next time it spins the rollers, i would expect as a minimum it will make 10kw more than last time.. i am certain it would make 360kw provided i had a good enough bottom end to really let it rev and ran an agressive tune.. snortingboost wrote: As you can see it's only running 9psi on this graph but still made 294rwkw out of the box. thats fairly impressive, i will do a complete run on 9psi when i do go back on dyno, the only tune it did on 9psi saw 237kw at 4200rpm, it makes max power at the limiter so will be interesting to see what it does snortingboost wrote: But hey, if your customers don't mind you taking to their new $2,000 turbo with a gas axe, 'just so you can control boost pressure', so be it.. yea, well, atleast im happy knowing that my customers can throw anything they like at my setup and arent going to run into any problems with boost control, i would not at all be happy if i had bought a snort kit and had as many dramas as i did, or sold one as it was and had to resolve the problem for someone else, ive covered all bases with the current setup snortingboost wrote: Think about this though, how does a BA control boost and make 400rwkw with the original 35/40 roller bearing turbo, using its standard tiny internal gate with all of Nizpro's best bolt on goodies?.. mmmm, im yet to see one that can... at that level they all use a machined out larger wastegate. hell, even fitting an aftermarket intercooler to the ba can cause overboost, and fitting a free flowing exhaust system also causes overboost... it shows the wastegate isnt big enough, and the rest of the system around it is all part of the boost control strategy. the std wastegate does as good as it does due to its tubine housing location, and the huge TIP caused from 4+psi exhaust backpressure and log style exhaust manifold snortingboost wrote: it's a direct copy of a snortperformance/JMM manifold just with extra butchering.. we all have to get all the pipes to the same place, and if you personally have built a manifold, how many possibilities for pipe routing did you come up with?? i have made two types, and i prefer this type snortingboost wrote: Look forward to reading your next colourful coments do you really?? lol. im glad im of some entertainment value snortingboost wrote: and severe ways of fitting wastgates onto turbine housings
it wasnt severe, just optimising the wastegate.. have you read "maximum boost", a extremely good reference if your looking for wastegate information, and one of the pictures is of a honda indy engine from memory, it goes on to say it was one of the most successful turbo charged engines of all time, note the ideal placement of the wastegate... its mounted inline with the turbine inlet
_________________ EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI |
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| EFFalcon |
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it doesn't take an expert to realise the wastegate positioned where ebs_4l has placed it is pretty much in one of the best places you could put it, it may seem crude and excessive, but it works and is very effective.
i personally don't think putting a hole in a turbine housing deserves all this critisism, no one called chef an idiot when he butchered a stock manifold to put a turbo on it, ebs_4l isnt telling everyone to go and do it, but its worked for him so its an option. has that 294rwkw car been on any one elses dyno then JMM's? i don't think JMM's dyno has much credability on forums these days.
_________________ FALCN6 - EF GLi Turbo, 20" Rims, Air Bag Suspension, Straight LPG, 225rwkw |
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| snortingboost |
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EFFalcon wrote: it doesn't take an expert to realise the wastegate positioned where ebs_4l has placed it is pretty much in one of the best places you could put it, it may seem crude and excessive, but it works and is very effective.
i personally don't think putting a hole in a turbine housing deserves all this critisism, no one called chef an idiot when he butchered a stock manifold to put a turbo on it, ebs_4l isnt telling everyone to go and do it, but its worked for him so its an option. has that 294rwkw car been on any one elses dyno then JMM's? i don't think JMM's dyno has much credability on forums these days. If you have a read of the thread title ED on boost in this forum then you will realise why i had a few things to say. ebs4l bagged the crap out of a proven snortperformance product from start to finish. It's not the first time he's hammered someonelse for having a go. I have no dramas with anyone sticking their gate onto their turbine housing, it's your turbo, but i do have dramas when others lash out on what is proven to work just fine. If ebs wants to use a cam with plenty of duration in a street driven turbo so be it. I still think most of us would rather use a gate mounted to the manifold instead of the turbo. If ebs had used a slightly smaller cam then he wouldn't have had all the troubles he's had controlling boost and would still be making plenty of mumbo i have no doubt. That dyno graph is during running in of that engine, tune was a very safe one and still is. Indy cars in that erra used a turbine mounted gate as they were only allowed to run a 2.65 litre engine using a maximum of 3.5psi. This is the only reason they used this setup because it's such a small amount of boost. They now use external gate's mounted to the manifold because they work and run similar boost. Anyway ebs, i've figured out the best position for a gate, refer the pic bellow.
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| EFFalcon |
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snortingboost wrote: It's not the first time he's hammered someonelse for having a go.
i'm very aware of that, you'll see i made a point earlier saying just because it works for you doesnt mean the other options arn't useful. just gotta know when to let it rest.
_________________ FALCN6 - EF GLi Turbo, 20" Rims, Air Bag Suspension, Straight LPG, 225rwkw |
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