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| galapogos01 |
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Posts: 1139 Joined: 27th Feb 2005 Ride: Supercharged EF Fairmont Location: T.I. Performance HQ |
Nice one! Always satisfying when you find the curly problems.
Cheers, Jason
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| efxr6wagon |
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It turns out that I was on the wrong track. The reason the cycling went away when I pulled the turn signal fuse is that is the switched circuit I used as the positive for my Techedge WBO2 controller. When I pulled the fuse, the unit just stopped taking new data from the sensors. D'oh!
The problem is definitely with the Bosch LSU-4.9 WBO2 sensor that came with the Techedge 2J9 WBO2 kit. When I disconnect the WBO2 sensor, the cycling stops and the Techedge shows dead steady MAP and AFR signals that respond to changes correctly. So, somehow, the WBO2 sensor is causing a 3.7-second cycling fluctuation in the MAP and AFR signals that the Techedge is recording. Does anyone know what might cause this? Has the sensor failed? Or maybe it's the Techedge controller itself? Is it some kind of weird current draw cycle in the sensor? I can log TPS and MAP accurately simply by disconnecting the WBO2 sensor. But I kind of need to log AFR at the same time for the logging to be useful. Thanks for any help.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| efxr6wagon |
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I have swapped in a different LSU-4.9 sensor, and the problem remains. So, the issue is either in the Techedge controller or the extension cable. I have a query in to Peter at Techedge, so I'll wait to see what he says.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| galapogos01 |
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Posts: 1139 Joined: 27th Feb 2005 Ride: Supercharged EF Fairmont Location: T.I. Performance HQ |
The sensor needs a lot of current when the heater is cycled on. Again I'd be looking at your wiring, power supply, earth's etc, as any fluctuation is obviously going to affect measurement.
Your power earth should not be SIGRET but your sensor earth should be tied to it. Cheers, Jason
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| efxr6wagon |
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Thanks, Jason.
I have had similar advice from Peter at Techedge. I temporarily connected the 2J9 controller power positive directly to the positive terminal on the battery, and that had no effect on the cycling. I moved the controller's power ground from the main ignition/indicator harness ground to the main ECU ground, so it is connected to the same source as the 8-pin I/O connector ground (pin 6). This also did not fix the MAP cycling, but it made the AFR fluctuation even worse. I can't figure out what to try next. Electrical/electronics is not my strong suit, so I really need help from anyone with expertise. Thanks very much.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| galapogos01 |
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Posts: 1139 Joined: 27th Feb 2005 Ride: Supercharged EF Fairmont Location: T.I. Performance HQ |
The main Power and Ground should go to reliable (5a+ capable) power sources. Maybe ground to the body if you're not sure.
Ground on the IO connector should go to SIGRET on your ECU and should not be connected to vehicle ground at all. This is a sensor ground and should be isolated from the main ground. The MAP sensor itself should be getting 5v from the VREF on the ECU, and ground from SIGRET (not vehicle ground!). Based on your elimination so far the issue is with ground not power. HTH Jason
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| efxr6wagon |
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Well, I think I finally understood what Jason and Peter were trying to explain to me. The issue was that the ground (pin 6) of the I/O connector was not connected to the same ground as the TPS and MAP sensors use.
When I connected the I/O ground to the sensor ground (pin 91 on the EF ECU) the cycling reduced dramatically. The ranges dropped from about 2 inHg MAP and 8% throttle to about 0.4 inHg MAP and 1% throttle. The cycle frequency is still about 3.7 secs, so the source will still be the O2 sensor heating cycle. I'm guessing that this is as good as I can expect to get it. In any case, it is plenty consistent enough for me to use it for logging and tuning. The controller power - both ground and positive - is connected to the 15A turn signal switched circuit, the heaviest gauge switched circuits nearby. So, this should be fine. I had assumed that the ECU ground and sensor ground were connected in the ECU. They clearly are not. Thanks very much for all the help solving this problem and teaching me a bit of auto electronics on the way.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| efxr6wagon |
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Now I have a new problem. When I open the throttle from idle, the MAP DECREASES. It should increase as the sensor is exposed to more ambient air pressure, shouldn't it.
Here's what I am seeing: - at 800rpm idle - 11.8-12.2 inHgA MAP - at 1600-1700rpm no load - 10.6-11.1 inHgA - at 2600rpm no load - 8.6 to 8.9 inHgA - 3 inHg more vacuum than idle - snapping the throttle open to WOT, no external load- 2900 rpm (revs coming up) - 29.6 inHgA - snapping the throttle closed again - 3100rpm (revs coming down) - 5.4 inHgA - engine off, WOT - 29.0-29.2 inHgA Actual barometric pressure is 1002hpa - about 29.6 inHgA Has anyone seen this happen before? Is it a sensor/logging problem? Or is the engine actually doing this? And if so, what can cause this? Is this reflecting the volumetric efficiency characteristics of the cam (about stage 3)? The cam is properly dialed in with a degree wheel and vernier gear. Or is my idle MAP too high - eg, a vacuum leak? I have swapped ISC valves and it made no difference. Thanks.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| galapogos01 |
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Posts: 1139 Joined: 27th Feb 2005 Ride: Supercharged EF Fairmont Location: T.I. Performance HQ |
Maybe check your sensor cal mate.
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| efxr6wagon |
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I checked the sensor configuration in Winlog, and it's correct. The fact that it shows 29+ for atmospheric, 12 at idle, and 5 on overrun seems to indicate that the sensor is generally working correctly. I'm thinking it has to be recording something the engine is actually doing.
Has anyone seen MAP DECREASE when coming off idle at no load? If that's normal for a dialed-in stage 3 cam, then I won't worry about it. But, if it indicates mechanical problems - eg, vacuum leak - I need to resolve it before I start trying to tune it and end up chasing my tail. Thanks for the help.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| efxr6wagon |
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Well, what I am seeing is real. As it comes off idle, at no load - effectively a higher idle - the vacuum increases (MAP decreases). I suspect that is a function of the hotter Stage 3 cam, now properly degreed, being less efficient at idle, but becoming more efficient as revs increase. Under load, the vacuum DOES decrease (MAP increases) as expected.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| efxr6wagon |
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Right! Well, the data logging is working fine. There is a tiny bit of variability in the MAP and TPS, but it's totally usable data.
I have been tuning, but have ended up chasing my tail. There is something going on with the actual AFR that I have been unable to diagnose, and would appreciate all help. I did a ramp run under load, and here is what it looks like: Attachment: Ramp run AFR drops 051122.PNG [ 28.21 KiB | Viewed 270 times ] The commanded AFR through this rev range starts at 13.8 at 1650 getting steadily richer to 13.2 at 2300 - effectively the peaks of this AFR line. But AFR spikes down (rich) 1.0-1.5 points three times, with gaps of 5 and 7 seconds. After each spike, it gradually leans out back to the commanded AFR. What could cause that to happen? I have spares of just about everything - ECU, FPR, injectors, etc. But before I start swapping and re-testing, does anyone have suggestions on where to start? Thanks, all.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| galapogos01 |
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Posts: 1139 Joined: 27th Feb 2005 Ride: Supercharged EF Fairmont Location: T.I. Performance HQ |
This appears to be part throttle tuning - are you possibly in closed loop, or have you removed the O2 input to the ECU as the tuning guide recommends?
Cheers, Jason
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| efxr6wagon |
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Sorry, I should have stated that. It is running purely in open loop, with no O2 sensor input to the ECU. So, the fuel should be only what is commanded by the tables.
Thanks.
_________________ 95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA rotors, KYB/Koni, AU bottom end, ported EF head, backcut valves, SS Inductions, Territory intake, 10.2 CR, Auckland 1258 cam, vernier gear, PH4480 headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip |
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| galapogos01 |
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Posts: 1139 Joined: 27th Feb 2005 Ride: Supercharged EF Fairmont Location: T.I. Performance HQ |
Very odd. I'd be checking other environmentals -- fuel pressure for one, and making sure the O2 is performing properly at other times.
Cheers, Jason
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